Turin versus Torino
February 12th, 2006 @ 18:11 — jjkWhy are there two names for the Italian city of Torino (the second being Turin)? If English and Italian share the same alphabet, why do they not share the same spelling and pronunciation of names of cities? Surely Italians don’t have alternate spellings and pronunciations of their last names, right? What gives?
February 14th, 2006 at 12:37
Historians of physics will remember that Heraclitus famously said, “panta rheei” (loosely: “all things change”). Not only does the natural world keep changing but so also does language. When Turin/Torino was founded it was a Roman military establishment called Augusta Taurinorum. “Augusta” after one of the emperor’s titles (“augustus”) and Taurinorum, “of the Taurini,” named after the local Celtic group. (There were lots of Augustas in the Roman world and they were distinguished from one another by the names of the local peoples. Trier in Germany was Augusta Treviorum and Augsburg, also in Germany, was another Augusta.) The Taurini were presumably the “bull-like ones” (tauros = ‘bull’) but any relationship to the Chicago Bulls is still controversial.
At some point, probably early on, Augusta Taurinorum was simplified to Taurinum (‘the Taurine [place]‘). By regular phonetic change that results in Italian Torino. Of course it’s not only its own inhabitants that need to talk about a place and, in the course of the Middle Ages, Taurinum/Torino became known to French speakers and, through the latter, English speakers. Naturally the French referred to it, as closely as the different phonological structure of French would allow, by the same name as the inhabitants of Torino did and the English speakers, in turn, called it the same thing, as closely as the phonological structure of English allowed, as the French did. But, just as Italian speakers were gradually, and regularly, changing Taurinum into Torino so did French speakers and English speakers change their pronunciations of Taurinum/Torino as their languages changed. Thus Torino is the regular Italian outcome of Latin Taurinum just as Turin is the regular English outcome of Taurinum. The relationship between the English and Italian versions of Rome/Roma (Latin Roma), Florence/Firenze (Latin Florentia), and Naples/Napoli (Latin Neapolis) is the same. Turning the tables, both English London and Italian Londra are the expected outcomes in the two languages of Latin Londinium.
October 15th, 2006 at 16:58
Sorry, Turin was not founded by Romans. Previous name of the “pagus” was Taurasion, place of Taurini tribe. Nothing is related with the bull. Only about the I° century b.C. this animal became tipical of the place because at Industria, previous name Bodincomagos, now Monteu da Po, few kms east from Torino, there were roman industries producing bronze votive bulls about oriental cults imported by the transferred legions. There is an archeo camp. Bulls exposition at Museo di antichità di Torino. “tauro” is a term related with a preindoeuropen radical element meaning “mountain”, Taurini is for “highlander”, “mount people”, ecc. It is true for many other peoples like Taurisci from northeast Italy and southwest austria and other peoples in cisalpina, liguntika, germania and illiria. The radical “tau” appears from atlanic coasts of bretagna to anatolia through the mountain regions of berberian places.
Roman foundation of Augusta Taurinorum was in in 28 b.C. Augusto Imperante.
About Taurasion (or Taurasia) wrote many classical authors two centuries before. In 218 a.C. this “dunum” was destroyed by Hannibal’s troops descending from western alps. Taurini at this time were in conflict with Insubri federation, allied of the Carthaginean chief against Roma.
Kailin ti!
November 3rd, 2006 at 11:16
Interesting post. I would have never guessed you both would have come to such a researched comclusion as of the duplicate names. I enjoyed the responses. Thanks for tmore useless dinner party info to make myself sound more intelligent. :)~ Would be interested in any other double name origins you all have found over the course of you studies.
Ken
http://www.j-ams.org
ken@j-ams.org
March 19th, 2007 at 12:38
Can you then explain the variation between “Deutschland” and “Germany” and even “Allemania?” I figure the suffix to the latter is typical latinization, but what about “Alleman?” It’s significantly different from “Deutsch” and “German.”
That should be good for several paragraphs or even a full-on story, huh?
TS
November 22nd, 2007 at 10:33
Really intersting…from now on, to confuse the waters, I will say “Nuova York” for “New York”, “Le Veggenti” for “Las Vegas”…
December 1st, 2007 at 12:03
As a citizen of the city i may say the everybody call the city “Torino”. The Turin name is used while speaking to non-italian people.
February 19th, 2008 at 18:19
Dear Sir/Madam
I would love to know the true origin of the name Torino. Some says it is the legend in the old times a young bull used to walk in the nights and making lots of noise…I am not sure pl;ease can you explain to me better to have more idea about these things
Dino
January 15th, 2009 at 22:49
Evidence about ethinic name “Taurini” and preindoeuropean radical is knew in indoeuropean linguistic studies and discussions from late of XVIII century.
This ancient radical is often non correctly related to the indoeuropean term meaning “bull” like i.e. modern gaelic , ancient gallic ecc.
Question about Taurini, Laevi, marici, Anares and other Padania Valley in ancient times as Ligures or Celtic tribes starts in the same period. Because often all this human groups were simply defined as “taurinae gentes” by ancient authors.
Samples of diffusion for preindoeuropea term “tauron” for “mountain”, (Greek first for all), are from Spain to Anatolia and from Germany to South Italy, places of indoeuropeans and non indoeuropeans where this word came into the newcomers language like many others (i.e. “dur” for “river “or “albu” for “village” or “alp” for “mountain pasture” ecc).
Ancestry geographical names like those of big rivers, hight mountains, big lakes are the strongest opponents to linguistic changes.
About Taurasion (or “Taurasia” in relationship with greek or roman authors, but according last ipothesis more probabily “Taurunon” or “Taurinon”) and Taurini tribe of modern Torino (really ancient village was probabilly located at the confluence of Po and Dora Riparia, norheast of modern city center, Titus Livius wrote “…per Taurinos saltusque Duriae..” (Susa Valley, the Dora riparia valley, the secon river of Turin) describing one of the three ways through gallic came from southeast France in IV century a.C.
Polibiius (Historiae 15,17) wrote about subalpine tribes speaking about Taurini (or Taurisci), angoni, Lebeci and Lai (or Laevi). Same for Plinius Senior and Strabo who report the defeat of Taurini and destruction of Taurasia by hannibal troops in 218 b.C.
Cause of this attack is clearly explained in the first post. Later, also Appiano.
So, Taurini and other populations are mentioned as Gentes Alpinae on the Arco di Susa, cerimonial monument erected in ancient Segusia (Susa), about 40 kms west from Turin, by king Cottius (Kottios from Graioceli, then simply knew as “Cottii”) when Rome gave him the title of allied and (unique case in the story of Rome’s italian territories) governor of “Provinciae Alpes”.
And so Taurini tribe name is on the “Sententia Minuciorum”, a bronze legal document from Polcevera Valley, innerland of Genoa.
For ancient authors there was already an identification problem: if Taurini were Celtic peoples, Ligures or Celtized Ligurians. Now we know, according the archeological evidencies, that Taurini came into padana Valley about late V century from east alpine passes coming from south austrian region of Noricum as a branch of Taurisci nation of Carpatic origin, not from west (they were celtic but not a properly “gallic” people).
Sites are found around Torino show that Taurini (Polibius named them as Taurisci) had a perfect technical and artistic similarity with Eastern Taurisci of Noricum Regio and that Taurini were already in this place when Gallic tribes from France (Senoni, Anari and Lingoni) and Boi from Carpatian depression and south Bavaria came into Italy in the IV century b.C.
So and should be the same thing, with a variation caused by ancient author interpretation or mistake or simply because the translation from celtic dialect of this people was not so easy.
A great related work is by Università di Torino and Università del Piemonte Orientale under direction of Prof. Mr. F.M. Gambari and his team, like excavation at “Bric of San Vito”, near Pecetto, a village on the hill of Torino, where a Taurini-Taurisci’s commercial site shows the activities of this tribe along the southern border of their territorial extension in front of that of a celtoligurians people living in Monferrato (the Gabieni).
Around Taurini’s lands were gallic (celts from eastern France) and celto-ligurian peoples: (from southeast to northwest along alpine valleys) Graioceli, Naburni, Acitavoni and Suaneti, then Salassi (north of Piemonte, Canavese and Valle d’Aosta), Vertamocori, Levi and Libui (two tribes subjugated by Insubri) and properly “Lepontic” mountain tribes as in Oxulae Valley and western Lago Maggiore coast, finishing with Insubri in the rest of western lakes of Pianura Padana, east costs and south territory from Golasecca-Castelletto Ticino area until northeastern Vercelli territory. Ticino river was the official border of their territory, but powership was really extended to west until Bressa area, east of Biella-Buiella, town of Victimuli, Salassi enemies as Insubri’s allied.
Some subjugated or simply allied or tributary (“vicani”) tribes of Taurini-Taurisci were Airelaschi near modern towns of Revigliasco and Airasca, the Supinensi standing in modern Stupinigi and, but it is not sure, the Santoni, near the modern Santena. Probably this was a gallic tribe came here about in the IV b.C.
Like also wrote, no evidence of “bull” symbolic use in the Torino area appears until the first century a.D. and about the early Taurini’s fortified site of Bodincomagos, Monteu da Po, east from Torino alog river Po, (but it’s not sure that it was really a Taurini’s “dunum”, ’cause it should be instead an outpost by Levi or also directly run by Insubres),
Name was changed into “Industria” and so Bodincomagus became a roman civitas in 123 b.C. before the augustean period and also the foundation of Julia Augusta Taurinorum (late Augusta Taurinorum) and the extablishment of a Praetorio law administration management, in 27 b.C. as probabily consequence of the fall of Taurini tribe powership, now roman’s allied as they are already before the second Punic war.
Late I century a.D. here rose a great and famous sanctuary complex with different buildings and bronze foundries remains (hundreds of bronze bulls made for sellig to pilgrims and their offering activities). It was consequently to the needs of troops of Rome placed in the old Castrum, now a town with walls and a big garrison of Legionnaires, a lot of them from eastern and southeastern provinces.
But this “bull” is not really related to the use of the bull as araldic symbol of Torino, simply represents the coincidence beetwen an ancient and eastern religious rite and misunderstood meanings of the original name of the city.
During longobadian, under duke Agilufo, king of reign as second husband of Teodolinda period, Taurasia-Taurunum became Taurinos and Carolingiand domain saw the name remaining the same. The Arduinica dinasty, 940 a.D. found the Marca Taurinensis and perhaps starts the use of bull as popular sign, not official, As sign, people from Taurinos-Augusta Taurinorum adopted the bull as mark simply because the name of the town seemed (for assonance) connected to this animal.
And really the bull was silver on red shield, not gold on blue and in “etruscan” style, four legs on ground, not rampant as today. This version remains as Flag of town quarter of “Torino Centro”. Changement starts during french domain on the town, in XVI century, when red of shied changes to blu by french tradition, bull becomes rampant and gold, and the blue municipal flag is divided by a white cross with four bulls each on a quarter as french contemporary heraldic custom.
With poliical situation depending by France kingdom and German Sacrum Romanum Imperium conflicts, imperial supporter against France policy Savoia dinasty rose as a powerful family interested in and taking powership on Piemonte and that it was. Torino became the capital city of the Principato del Piemonte. Torino, in fact, adopted the bull as emblem officially only june 16th 1687,
Before this date, nothig official. Except some non official sporadic connection in popular legends or litteray evidences in book paintings or engravings starting from late XV century until the non official use of the french garrisons.
Cerèa a tuti ‘d Turin
(greetings to all from Turin)
February 11th, 2009 at 17:33
Sorry, but the Indo-European root t-r is etymologically related to both mountain/hill and bull and in many cases symbolizes both concepts in union.
October 23rd, 2009 at 01:22
My native provincia of Torino/Turin husband says that Turin(tour-reen) is local piemontese dialect regardless of the origins of the name and Torino is the Italian proper name. I dis agree with the person that says that locals only refer to it as Turin with foreigners. Most everyone in my valley (Chisone) uses Tour-reen.
August 30th, 2010 at 07:54
For ancient authors there was already an identification problem: if Taurini were Celtic peoples, Ligures or Celtized Ligurians. Now we know, according the archeological evidencies, that Taurini came into padana Valley about late V century from east alpine passes coming from south austrian region of Noricum as a branch of Taurisci nation of Carpatic origin, not from west (they were celtic but not a properly “gallic” people).
April 6th, 2011 at 00:16
Both are true: archeological evidences show connection between Taurini and Salassi (southern Salassi in high Canavese and northern Salassi in Aosta Valley, divided by Monte Rosa massif ) and Taurisci from Noricus as found by Università del Piemonte Orientale teams lead by Dr. Gambari (now Director of Sopraintendenza Archeologica dell’Emilia romagna), but there are also evidences of rhodanian culture influences from west ’till early BC V through Susa Valley interesting Taurini and southern Salassi and from high Savoy through northern mountain passes involving norhern Salassi.
At the “Maddalena”, in the middle of the valley, 718 mt altitude over Chiomonte, there’s a continuously attended site from BC 4300 ’till secon iron age (about end of BC III). Here is the found of eleven burials between late V and III century BC, “Chamblandes” type, lithic cists buried, 50 meters south west the settlement structures. The most important is about an aged woman showing some prosperity having jewelry and rhodanian style pottery deposed in the grave. As it seems burials are not about stable inhabitants but probably relative to travellers dead during the trip from high passage (Moncenisio, or less probably southern pass through Cesana Valley) to the plane of Turin. Other sites suchlike this are localized at Soubras and Vazon villages (between Oulx and Cesana Torinese), showing evidence of connection with transalpine and cisalpine cultures. Also BC VI-V century rock engraving are at Monpantero-Costa Secca (To), Novalesa (To) and Moncenisio (To) are gathering information about human interchanges between west and east sides.
Same thing about the only two iron age sites found in Aosta Valley until today: first is re-occupied Saint-Martin-de-Corleans (last phase burials are BC VIII/VII-I century), second is a village on Mont Tantané, La Magdeleine municipality, in use from middle iron age to BC I century. Here remains are gallic and roman coins (types from Allobrogi and other transalpine tribes), fibulas, and pottery whether locally made and from other side of Alps.
Recently researches led to an hypothetical site for Taurasion first settlement at ancient confluence of Dora Riparia and Po river, more western than today, where in ancient times was a rocky spur then paved for walls building in sixteenth century AD. Area is still called as “Rocca di Po” and is located in front of the Imbarcadero of Murazzi del Po, between Via della Rocca (the street still maintaining the record of the ancient “Rocca di Po” in it’s name) and Giardini Cavour.
About Marty’s observation, sorry, but it doesn’t seem to me that i.e. ethimologically relates to both therms. My Köbler’s Indogermanic dictionary (ed. 2000) defines only one meaning for this radical form: *tauros? , idg., M.: nhd. Stier; ne. bull (N.) (1); RB.: Pokorny 1083; Hw.: s. *tu- (?), *steuro- (?); E.: s. *tu- (?); W.: air. tarb, M., Stier; an. tarf-r, st. M. (a), Stier, Ochs, Ochse. Instead, referred to “mountain” are forms as *beu- (2) , bher- and other different not related to the therms as or (possibly) and same is from DNGHU official Proto-Indoeuropean Lexicon.
Anyhow, there are elements that lead to think both therms “Taurini” and “Taurisci” were not endoethnonyms: first of all celtic languages, both Gaulish and North Italian Celtic, or “Lepontic”, as all brittonic languages show metathesis “taru-” (or “tarv-” , as gaelic form is “tarbh-”) instead of “taur-” or “tavr-” and this is a tipical and exclusive celtic form well distinguished from all other central i.e. languages expressions.
Also, the only evidence of use of this terms is from roman authors and used (at least referring to Taurini) as interchangeable as “Montani” and “Montaneschi” when they wrote about them as part of “mountain” ligurian or celto-ligurian tribes.
About the uncertainty about ending form “-sci” and “-ini” (“Taurini”/”Taurisci”), as like as “isci” and “-istae” (i.e. “Scordistae”/”Scordici”) is typical of roman and greek authors and it depends by several reasons, as temporal period or the source of information. In fact, M. Porcius Cato, Polybius, Herodianus (citing Eratosthenes) and the ps-Sextus Aurelius Victor all referred to “ours” Taurini as “Taurisci” or from “Taurisca stirpe” instead of Strabo, Livy, Pliny the Elder and Ammianus Marcellinus that used the ethnonym “Taurini” and there’s also who called them with both the names…
Hy
April 6th, 2011 at 00:57
Marla, your husband is almost true.
Piemontese form is , with the diaeresis on /u/ letter that must pronounced as IPA [y] : “T-( very close french /u/)-reen. Torino is the italian form.
As , pron. “Pee-a (/a/ like in “cat” but very open)-moont (final /t/ sound level very low and very very lightly sucked) is the piedmontese form (/o/ must pronounced as “oo”, /ô/ like the italian “o”) and the italian.
Türineis (Torinese) dialect is very open in pronouncing all vowels except u and ü, strongly nasalizes and sibilant . (It’s my dialect)
Other Piedmontese dialect, like Cuneis (Cuneese) and Monregaleis (Monregalese) are more closed pronouncing vowels, lightly palatal and closed mouth speaking. (Its my mother’s).
Hy
April 6th, 2011 at 01:07
Sorry, i used wrong symbols and some words are disappeared. Re-wrote:
Piemontese form is “Türin”, with the diaeresis on /u/ letter that must pronounced as IPA [y] : “T-( very close french /u/)-reen. “Torino” is the italian form.
As “Piemont”, pron. “Pee-a (/a/ like in “cat” but very open)-moont (final /t/ sound level very low and very very lightly sucked) is the piedmontese form (/o/ must pronounced as “oo”, /ô/ like the italian “o”) and “Piemonte” the italian.
Türineis (Torinese) dialect is very open in pronouncing all vowels except /u/ and /ü/, strongly nasalizes /n/ and sibilant . (It’s my dialect)
Other Piedmontese dialect, like Cuneis (Cuneese) and Monregaleis (Monregalese) are more closed pronouncing vowels, lightly palatal and closed mouth speaking. (Its my mother’s).
Hy
May 11th, 2011 at 03:22
I wonder about the need to change city names as well. My home town used to be ‘Bombay’ – but was changed to ‘Mumbai’ (which is the name in the regional language). Imagine how much confusion was the result from this shift, especially considering it has a busy international airport and is the commercial capital of the country!